Neo TeAm Forum

NEO Coding Competitions => NEO Compo 2007 => The past Neo Coding Compos => NEO Spring Coding Compo 2007 => Topic started by: Dr.neo on April 07, 2007, 12:19:31 PM

Title: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: Dr.neo on April 07, 2007, 12:19:31 PM
we are think about to  add one more term in the next compo (Aug.20th 2007) :

exactly same app or game (even it's new version)  don't allow to enter NEO compo again?

how about this idea? i want to know your answer ::sm-22.gif::
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: MrShlee on April 07, 2007, 12:38:15 PM
if its a LARGE change.. I would allow it
but a new skin and updated libraries is not a new entry!
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: Payk on April 07, 2007, 05:42:27 PM
I voted "don't  allow".
Because i could just change all maps and reenter my game. Well it wouldn't get 1th again, but still would be unfair. But what would be if i would reuse that engine to make a multiplayer online game?
It would then be a new version of the engine, but a completly new game.

Maybe you could make a poll for each "old" entry that comes up next compo, to decide if it can enter or not. That's my opinion.
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: Arialia on April 07, 2007, 09:36:58 PM
i voted allow but it must be real new version and for me if a program win a compo (1st place)  it couldn't participate to the next compo
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: smealum on April 07, 2007, 10:35:59 PM
I think if there's a MAJOR change, it should be allowed to enter a second time. But only if the new version is really different....
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: Sweater Fish Deluxe on April 08, 2007, 08:31:00 AM
While I agree in theory that it should be okay to re-enter a game or app if major changes have been made, I think the fact is there's abound to be disagreements over what constitutes "major changes."  The coder may say, "No, there's major changes here, I worked for months improving the code," but someone else  might not think the changes are enough to be considered "major."  So it's better to simply not allow the same work to be entered twice.  This makes the contest more interesting anyway, it's always nice to see all new works entered than just the same things.

At the very least, entries that placed in the top three should not be accepted as re-entries.

Personally, I think it would be nice if only games or apps that have never before been released at all were allowed in the contest, but I guess that would probably limit the number of entries too much.


...word is bondage...

Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: lobo on April 08, 2007, 11:57:22 AM
Ye, it would be sweet to have fresh homebrew delivered to your doorstep at the next compo but that would most likely limit the amount of apps/games presented. I don't mind seeing the same entry if improvements are rather visible, more than a word of author that 'there is something in there..something new and improved".

It would also be very easy to distinguish what has been added/improved really. Here's the example~DukeDS came to this compo, Ok. What's missing is sfx/music and speed optimization so that's very obvious. Comes next  compo, these three things solved/improved/added~voila..the whole new entry. No reason not to include it for the compo. The same goes for apps, developers submit the changelog, neoflash mods compare it to the previous versions and hopefully test it out as well and if the change /improvement is there..no problem, enter 200 compos if you will and win all of them!

While we're at it..
 ::sm-09.gif::  <<ok, this is pigeon smoking weed, I'm telling you.
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: hallo007 on April 12, 2007, 01:16:50 AM
i voted against  , i am against it , so i dindt send a new update of flash agent ,thats just not fair
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: Dr.neo on April 12, 2007, 01:45:57 PM
i think maybe we can accept the whole new version enter one more time again (just once again), but without the "original score", all original entries will get +1 "original score" at the final result?
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: alekmaul on April 12, 2007, 06:44:51 PM
No, Dr Neo, I don't think it is a good choice.
You must stop to accept entries a second time.
Only new entries are good for a compo. If a game/app seems to be not finished and we use it for the compo, it is our pb if we will have a bad score.
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: mollusk on April 12, 2007, 06:57:55 PM
I voted against reentering with the same game/app, but I think in CERTAIN CASES it COULD EVENTUALLY be allowed... That is, if the homebrew was more or less in preview state (ie not finished) when it first entered, and has MAJOR changes in the new one...

But, all in all, we could just think that not allowing to reenter will prevent people from submitting unfinished stuff :)
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: omg on April 12, 2007, 11:26:15 PM
I think an APP or a GAME can continue Neocompo.
Why?
Because I want to finish my game and do a full playable version.
Neocompo is for me motivation to continue my game.
But if new functions aren't very important, Jury can refuse the game.
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: Dr.neo on April 13, 2007, 12:46:11 AM
hum... maybe we can give more high "original score" to the original new project, like give it more +2 even +3 , then in this way we can keep to give the chance to the "old" entry to make a big improvement to let their entries to win, because even 1 score will affect the result.

In this way, the very promising project have chance to grow still for the second life, and compo have given more support to the "original" project try to enter compo. this way whould be a nice soluton,both for "original" and "old" project, it make the compo balancing ? ::sm-02::
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: Arialia on April 13, 2007, 04:43:20 AM
Yes it's very difficult to choose because for a lot of programmers we'll thinking entry again for the next compo and maybe don't enter this time if we knew new rules ....

but if i have not enter for this compo i will agree with alekmaul and Mollusk ...

So i think your proposition is the best : giving "original project" score

and i add this : no permit reenter of the winners programs (1st) of last compo
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: jester on April 13, 2007, 11:51:47 PM
I think no because Homebrew is about innovation and new fresh unseen ideas and perfection on those ideas.

Re-Adding the same program into a compo would just put off other ambitous and perhaps talented programmers from succeeding.

We wouldnt be able to see what the ds can really do
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: Dr.neo on April 14, 2007, 12:14:40 PM
Quote
and i add this : no permit reenter of the winners programs (1st) of last compo


sound good idea.
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: cory1492 on April 14, 2007, 08:54:10 PM
Part of the reason why I believe judges cards should be required to judge any compo. Originality could be given much more weight than other things if that is the desired goal of the compo, so that re-entering the same program or entering a program that has been around publicly for quite some time would be considered ... not very original.

Honestly though, it should be totally disallowed to enter someone else's work in any compo. Misrepresentation simply is not right.
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: Lick on April 15, 2007, 07:21:25 AM
Honestly though, it should be totally disallowed to enter someone else's work in any compo. Misrepresentation simply is not right.
QFT.
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: spinal on April 17, 2007, 05:49:02 PM
I think if ther a major changes, then yes, but just a couple of updates then no.

I did a complete remake or my original entry, and I don't think anyone minded.

previous version
http://www.neoflash.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3028.0;attach=1090
7 levels no sound poor controls terrible gfx 2 days work.

new version
http://www.freewebs.com/sensitiveds/screenshots/04.gif
nice(er)gfx, bgm, sfx, 160 levels, level builder, tilt function etc.


Perhaps a form to fill when submitting?

[ ] Original title
[ ] or Remake
[ ] Original Author
[ ] or Someone else's work modded to look like I did more than I did
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: d-loader on April 18, 2007, 03:40:04 AM

[ ] or Someone else's work modded to look like I did more than I did


Lol, BeUP  ::sm-05::
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: Brunni on April 18, 2007, 06:48:52 PM
This poll means nothing. People just have to change their nickname and their application name and we could believe it's an all new entry, while it's not.
The clear thing would be:
1) Don't take (so much) in account the people's vote. They can be and ARE cheated!
2) Open a special thread during the competition. Everybody who sees an unfair entry, like for example another app done by another coder which is strangely similar to BeUp (which is open source). Then if people can prove the entry has cheated, this would be taken in account by the judges which would HAVE to read that thread. They would give less points to these entries.

Also, I think the same application should be allowed again only if a LOT of things changed. We can always encourage coders to continue working on their projects, else they'll stop them once the compo is terminated, and they will never be improved, bugs will not be corrected, and so on. This is a bad idea.
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: Dr.neo on April 19, 2007, 12:44:04 AM
yes,Brunni just post a very good suggestion.

so my idea is:
[1] all origial entry will get +3 "original score " , but the second entry (same project from last sompo but have improved, and just one more time ) will don't get any "original score ";

[2] the public poll will get less judge power, like just half with the just past compo.

[3] we will open one poll to let user judge which entry is "original" entry.

[4] ask more judger (from last neo compo top 10 winner) and neo compo partner site to give out the judgment,so it'll be more professional and more fair.

any more good idea?
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: mastertop101 on April 19, 2007, 08:28:14 AM


Quote
[3] we will open one poll to let user judge which entry is "original" entry.

I'm not sure if it's a good idea.. there will still be cheating... I -beleive- judges are intelligent enough to decide whether something is original or not ;).
Plus, there should be some well DEFINED criterias, for example :

Originality : ?/10 ; Points allowed to a game/app according to how different the game/app compared to other games. Points could be given for Stylus and Dual screen use..

etc.

Just so that everything is CLEAR AND LEGIT.

Thanks
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: OSW on April 19, 2007, 07:30:17 PM
I think we're on the right track here with the last few suggestions.

I think an important one for me is that winners of the last contest can't enter the same project (even if it's majorly updated).

Also encouraging original submissions is important too, i believe it's beneficial to the homebrew community. So i support the extra score for original projects.

Despite this, i hope developers will continue to perfect their old projects.
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: Dr.neo on April 19, 2007, 10:53:00 PM
revise #2:

[1] all origial entry will get +3 "original score " , but the second entry (same project from last sompo but have improved, and just one more time ) will don't get any "original score ";

[2] the public poll will get less judge power, like just half with the just past compo.

[3] ask more judger (from last neo compo top 10 winner) and neo compo partner site to give out the judgment,so it'll be more professional and more fair.

[4] the No.1 winner can't use their same project (even it's updata a lot) to enter the next compo.

anymore idea
?
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: mastertop101 on April 20, 2007, 05:16:34 AM
Hmm,... pretty good ideas.. but.. hmm... 3points ??? It should be 15 points !
 ::sm-14.gif::
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: Dr.neo on April 20, 2007, 12:35:46 PM
15 points is too much,even 1 point then can affect the ending a lot. ::sm-12.gif::
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: OSW on April 20, 2007, 04:01:57 PM
i'd be happy with those terms.  ::sm-29.gif::
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: spinal on April 21, 2007, 12:00:19 AM
I'm happy ::sm-18.gif::
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: jester on April 21, 2007, 01:01:44 AM
why should the public vote have less power? the public are the ones playing the games the most i feel!

Anyways do as you guys see fit
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: Sweater Fish Deluxe on April 21, 2007, 01:13:22 AM
I think he's planning to reduce the influence of the poll because of how easily the polls can be manipulated.  I think a better solution would be to make it harder to manipulate the polls since I agree that the general community should actually have the most say in who wins, but maybe that would be too complicated to do or something.

I also agree that something more than just +3 would be called for since that would create very little change just from looking at the result of the last contest as an example.  Considering that by far the majority of people answering the poll in this topic thought that the same project shouldn't even be allowed to enter the contest again at all, if re-entries are in fact going to be allowed, I would expect that +10 or at the very least +5 points would be fair for original entries.


...word is bondage...
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: jester on April 21, 2007, 01:16:42 AM
yeah i understand thanks

Ok excellent i understand
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: Öhr GmbH on April 25, 2007, 02:49:48 AM
should be only allowed, if the game/app was never in the top5... ::sm-13.gif::
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: ai3gtmc on April 27, 2007, 06:36:19 PM
i voted allow but it must be real new version and for me if a program win a compo (1st place)  it couldn't participate to the next compo

agree!..
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: Dr.neo on April 28, 2007, 01:57:06 PM
revise #3:

[1] all origial entry will get +5 "original score " , but the second entry (same project from last sompo but have improved, and just one more time ) will don't get any "original score ";

[2] the public poll will get less judge power , like just half with the just past compo.

[3] ask more judger (from last neo compo top 10 winner) and neo compo partner site to give out the judgment,so it'll be more professional and more fair.

[4] the No.1 winner can't use their same project (even it's updata a lot) to enter the next compo.

anymore idea?
i think it's fair enough ? 8)
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: Öhr GmbH on April 28, 2007, 06:04:25 PM
yes, sounds fair.
but a entry(if it enters again) should get +2 original points if it made the 6th place or lower in the last compo, so it still has a chance of a greater prize
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: ai3gtmc on April 29, 2007, 02:40:14 AM
yeah fair but i agree the post above  me
Title: Re: poll about the "same" entry in the compo
Post by: ai3gtmc on April 30, 2007, 05:58:06 AM
hmm
?>.<

lol i won 3rd place bcoz of my flasher... and im going to update it.. BIG update... not only flasher but with some more good stuff.. ::sm-14.gif::

and the FLASHER that im going to do is DIFFERENT from other normal open source flasher.. HUGE Difference