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NEO Coding Competitions => NEO Compo 2007 => The past Neo Coding Compos => NEO Spring Coding Compo 2007 => Topic started by: Dr.neo on April 17, 2007, 02:29:03 AM

Title: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: Dr.neo on April 17, 2007, 02:29:03 AM
hi,i think we should make a open poll with HtheB case indeed ...

Quote
I never said I didn't want people to profit from my work. The GPL allows it, and I chose the GPL intentionally. In other words: I don't like it, but you're allowed to.

Please don't bash HtheB for me. He did a good job supporting the program. While I disagree with the fact that he participated in the contest, I still think he has done a good job keeping beup alive. Please don't turn this into a flamewar.

As to whether he deserves the first prize, it's not up to me to decide. This is a community contest, let the community decide.


original link: http://www.neoflash.com/forum/index.php/topic,4121.30.html

just give out your vote now.  ::sm-22.gif::
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: Lick on April 17, 2007, 02:48:20 AM
To everyone who did not follow the discussion, please read the above linked threads before casting your votes. There has been more going on than "the results say yes, so yes".

By the way, I think this poll is meaningless, since as any other online poll, it can be manipulated endlessly (friends, multiple accounts et cetera..).
Maybe you should rename the topic "Should HtheB win a Wii for changing 15 lines of code?"
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: Neil on April 17, 2007, 03:05:27 AM
Look also at the way HtheB lists himself above kevinc in the credit section of his site!  It's disgraceful, you should always ALWAYS give credit where it's due.  Don't let this cheater prosper, it will surely lead to similar occurrences in future competitions, and may also make coders very reluctant to release their source code - which means the entire community suffers.
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: jester on April 17, 2007, 03:09:49 AM
 ::sm-22.gif:: i have voted HAVE YOU? well its clear the answer should be no and expulsion from Neoflash compo's forever!
 BUT i also feel this should NOT tarnish the invicible record of this prestigous compo!

Lessons need to be learned however
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: Sweater Fish Deluxe on April 17, 2007, 03:31:43 AM
I originially thought it would be best to give him the prize since the announcements had already been made, but I think that if he really only changed such a small amount of kevinC's code, then it is not fair to the other entries which all required more work if HtheB gets first prize for essentially just recompiling someone else's code.

I don't think this makes HtheB a bad guy.  I can understand why he entered his version of BeUP inthe contest.  When I saw that there were only 10 entries in the NDS Apps division, I considered throwing together a simple DLDI MOD player with a GUI as an entry since it would have been guaranteed to win a prize.  This is probably what HtheB was thinking, too.  I doubt he expected to get first place.

If all the questions about his entry that people have brought up after the results were announced had been asked before, there would have been no problem.

I think in the future contests, the judges will have to be more careful and consider these kinds of issues as well as simply rating the game or app on its own merits.


...word is bondage...
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: mastertop101 on April 17, 2007, 04:42:38 AM
Ahh! Thank you Dr Neo for doing this.. It proves us there won't be too much bull**** in future contests..

Keep Rocking Dr. !  :P

AND VOTE NO!
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: Link_of_Hyrule on April 17, 2007, 06:23:26 AM
HtheB has done a great job supporting this application and trying to keep it up to date and working even if the code is as little as kevinc says it is HtheB still deserves the prizes since he already won anyways its stupid to even vote on this HtheB maybe could give kevinc more credit yes but at the rate you people are going HtheB will stop developing further and you will be stuck with a none working beup when microsoft changes the protocol again also HtheB has alot of new features planned for beup that could greatly improve it such as add/remove/block built in mp3 player and he said maybe even voice chat eventualy but this depends on weather the homebrew community supports him or not

thats is all please vote how you choose
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: Lick on April 17, 2007, 06:38:04 AM
From the facts, I doubt HtheB can code an MP3 player or a voice chat feature. I think he's just being a little too optimistic about his skills, so don't believe him so easily.
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: Link_of_Hyrule on April 17, 2007, 11:22:15 AM
beleave what you must but only time will tell
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: spinal on April 17, 2007, 03:28:22 PM
15 lines of code eh! I dont think that can ever merit getting a Wii. If I wrote only 15 lines of code and entered it in a compo, I doubt it get above LAST place. ::sm-16.gif::

For the next competition, I will enter MarioKart hacked with my name in it on the title screen. That should get me first prize.
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: GizmoTheGreen on April 17, 2007, 04:00:34 PM
HtheB didnt just recompile a project, he has been active in the nds scene for a long time, helping ppl out, whenever thay have problems, running beup, DSO, whatev, everything from how dldi works, to what a flashcart is, he helps ppl when they need it. ::sm-10.gif::

he has also helped me alot with coding  ::sm-22.gif::

so, a Wii for 12 - 20 lines of code? No.... :-\
but for that 12 - 20 lines of code and hella lot of bugsearching to get it to work, and helping ppl in the community for a very long time? hell yes! >:D

VOTE YES!
I did, and im proud  :D
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: d4rkb1t on April 17, 2007, 04:55:30 PM
Please read it with a friendly tone (because it could seem with a offensive tone, and it isn't)

Who has visited the HtheB 's project page?. He not only update the beup to Beup Live, he has helped with more projects and a lot of coders.

For lick:

"From the facts, I doubt HtheB can code an MP3 player.... I think he's just being a little too optimistic about his skills".... I saw this, but not in HtheB.... i'm just remembering...: "I would really want to know how you managed to get the sound right (without clicking). I tried many different solutions before I finally gave up. "....  ::sm-13.gif::

I know that it isn't easy to code, but when a project is left with some bugs (and as far as I know and as far as I read in forums, BEUP had many bugs), and you improve it... for me it was a change. I don't know which this bugs were and don't know how many bugs there were and how difficult was to fix them (It only is known by HtheB). If there are enough changes and enough fix, as i said for me there is a change not only in the name, it has changed the project too.... if you don't see that... you are putting the genius of Lucas (i'm sure that you know him) in the same place: in fact, the only that have changed in LMP-ng (your project and your, sincerely, BRILLIANT idea) is that the songs, sounds better and supports many formats..... and.... I think that it didn't was only that with the first update made by lucas, for example LMP-ng was more stable (now LMP-ng has a lot of more changes, and for me is a other different project than the first LMP, or IpoDS as you said at the beginning of the aplicattion)

Btw.. what are treating this compo? the "beautiful", or the "final aspect" of the project, or the complexity of the code? (as all we know, not always is the same). Because if this compo are treating the interface of the applicattion, you are rightness... but... in the other way... you are "insulting" all these coders that are doing emulators, or are porting games because in fact, the "final aspect" is the same that the "original" emulator/game... and all we know that behind this "final aspect" are... hours and hours of work.

d4rkb1t

PD: I REPEAT..... these arguments are only if BEUP had a lot of bugs and HtheB have fix it one by one, and as I said before, it only is known by HtheB. I'll talk with him friday at nigh (I have exams now in the university and... well... I must to study n.n'). I also repeat that please read it with a friendly tone

Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: Lick on April 17, 2007, 05:46:35 PM
Link_of_hyrule: I just don't want people to blame me that Beup won't play MP3s because HtheB doesn't want to continue his work. Currently, it does not seem like HtheB has those skills. So please think about that first.

Gizmo, do you even know how many programmers help other people as well? Just visit the GBADev forum, visit #dsdev at irc.blitzed.org! This compo was never about personal kindness, it was about coding. That, he did not do much (~15 lines).

d4rkb1t: LMP-ng is a complete rewrite, done well. I have looked at his code (he releases the code Open Source, unlike HtheB) and I can conclude that he probably only reused 5% of the code, so he recoded most of it. I would not have any objections if he entered with LMP-ng. Lucas has worked very hard on it, and he has the evidence to prove so.
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: OSW on April 17, 2007, 06:56:48 PM
I really don't want this to discourage HtheB from any future involvement in the NDS community, and it's no thing personal, but i wish for justice.

Personally i think maybe HtheB should recieve an alternate prize of lesser value as it appears he put "Some" (don't need to debate this please) effort into beup, and the wii be kept for another contest or something, But since i am not one able to validate this option, i entered no in the poll.

Oh, and LMP-ng is a brilliant app, i use it almost everyday! more convenient for music than moonshell.
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: Timo710 on April 17, 2007, 09:05:43 PM
Guys you really don't get it do you, without HtheB, beup wouldn't be usable anymore, Microsoft changes the MSN protocol quite a lot, and everytime that happens HtheB has to change Beup, since KevinC has stopped making beup HtheB is the only one who knows how to update it....

HtheB even was updating the program while his DS was broken. He gave you a service, and now you, the users of beup, backstabb him like that....
 >:(
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: rudamen on April 17, 2007, 09:21:22 PM
Guys you really don't get it do you, without HtheB, beup wouldn't be usable anymore, Microsoft changes the MSN protocol quite a lot, and everytime that happens HtheB has to change Beup, since KevinC has stopped making beup HtheB is the only one who knows how to update it....

HtheB even was updating the program while his DS was broken. He gave you a service, and now you, the users of beup, backstabb him like that....
 >:(


I agree. There in no more to say. HtheB has won this prize with many hours of work, all them for you, for the users of this application...
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: Lick on April 17, 2007, 09:36:21 PM
It seems that you haven't read the discussion at all?

It has been proven that HtheB's work is not even remotely enough for him to enter Beup as his own project, because he has only MAINTAINED it. There's a vast difference between maintaining (updating vital parts of the code) and developing the code. It's like replacing parts of a car-engine, compared to building a car-engine from scratch.
The point is now whether he spent effort on Beup or not, we are all sure he did. It's the question, did he add enough code to Beup himself to enter this coding compo as the projects developer?

If you have no programming experience, please do not form your opinion so lightly. Please read the linked topics before casting your vote.
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: Brunni on April 17, 2007, 11:30:23 PM
Guys you really don't get it do you, without HtheB, beup wouldn't be usable anymore, Microsoft changes the MSN protocol quite a lot, and everytime that happens HtheB has to change Beup, since KevinC has stopped making beup HtheB is the only one who knows how to update it....

HtheB even was updating the program while his DS was broken. He gave you a service, and now you, the users of beup, backstabb him like that....
 >:(

This is not about backstabb him, we all appreciate his work and what he did. The poll is just asking "does this merit the first prize" compared to the work that has gone in other apps as well (and especially because they all began from zero and didn't present the program the last compo).

And as said the goal of a coding compo is not judging about personal kindness. I don't know HtheB and I sure think he's very kind but maybe others are as well. It's impossible to judge.
(Btw most of the coders here have already done a lot for the community, like Mollusk for example - and he has not finished 1st -, this is not an excuse).

As Beup got 1st, I would say: do it like the project was made by 2 authors (some other entries were done by 2 or more people as well, like Payk's game). Beup has won, so now it's up to HtheB and kevinc (and other Beup contributors) to decide what to do with the prize. ;)
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: jester on April 17, 2007, 11:34:21 PM
Whether it merits first place or not the game SHOULDNT HAVE BEEN ENTERED! But it was so we need to vote no so people now will know that entering in this fashion is wrong.

Also it was his app originally so he shouldnt be trying to take all the credit as this is wrong from his also so if you know what is right vote NO
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: retrohead on April 18, 2007, 12:11:59 AM
I said yes, he does deserve it. If there was a problem with the entry NeoFlash should have said so, full stop. It is not Licks or anyone elses decision to make other than NeoFlash.

He doesn't deserve it really but it is NeoFlash's fault for letting the application hit the voting stages when it quite clearly should have been rejected. I see re-releases at nearly every competition and quite frankly am getting fed up with it.

I suggest you coders take your coding skills elsewhere if you are so pissed off with the outcome of this. The competition is at fault and not HtheB, he was probably trying it on by entering it sure but again it SHOULD have been rejected. I mean we're even voting on it again now, this is madness to the extreme.

Make a decision, stick by it and respect your own decision, this looks very bad on this compo imho.

Sorry Neo, you messed up  :(
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: Rogirozz on April 18, 2007, 12:38:04 AM
Just be happy that HtheB is giving about BeUp. Kevinc was dead on the work of BeUp. Without HtheB we don't even can run BeUp without bugs. And even if there's nothing changed. I can know that he coded the picture system. And he changed things so I can run it with my router. So if you complain it's your fault. He deserve it.
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: Sweater Fish Deluxe on April 18, 2007, 01:17:17 AM
HtheB didnt just recompile a project, he has been active in the nds scene for a long time, helping ppl out, whenever thay have problems, running beup, DSO, whatev, everything from how dldi works, to what a flashcart is, he helps ppl when they need it. ::sm-10.gif::
This was a coding competition, though, not a nice guy competition.  I'm all for nice guy competitions, but in this case HtheB must be judged only on his programming work for BeUP, nothing else.

From the facts, I doubt HtheB can code an MP3 player or a voice chat feature. I think he's just being a little too optimistic about his skills, so don't believe him so easily.
I'm curious...which of the facts exactly lead you to deduce that?

It seems like there's some question about how much HtheB has added to BeUP.  Did he really add the picture sending system as Rogirozz just said?  I don't use BeUP or know much anything about it, so I don't know.  But it doesn't seem like he could add a thing like that as well as the DLDI changes and other things all in just 15 lines of code.  Is it possible that the version kevinc saw was an earlier version.  I just looked at the BeUP Live entry thread and HtheB updated the project twice even after making his original entry.


...word is bondage...
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: rudamen on April 18, 2007, 01:32:13 AM
It seems that you haven't read the discussion at all?

It has been proven that HtheB's work is not even remotely enough for him to enter Beup as his own project, because he has only MAINTAINED it. There's a vast difference between maintaining (updating vital parts of the code) and developing the code. It's like replacing parts of a car-engine, compared to building a car-engine from scratch.
The point is now whether he spent effort on Beup or not, we are all sure he did. It's the question, did he add enough code to Beup himself to enter this coding compo as the projects developer?

If you have no programming experience, please do not form your opinion so lightly. Please read the linked topics before casting your vote.


Well... You think that I've got no idea... You think that HtheB didn't make a good effort to bring us the actual version of Beup... You think that the code is very similar to the original...

Is really this the  question?
Why did you let him to enter at Compo with Beup?
You should redact the rules before Compo begun... NOT NOW!

Compo has died... Many of you don't respect the votations of many people and you are triying to change the results...

It's very sad...
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: julien416 on April 18, 2007, 02:07:01 AM
Some people seem to be missing the whole point. Everyone is very thankful to Htheb for maintening the code. However, as Kevinc who wrote 99,8% of the code stated, it would have been wise to tell about the nature of the changes made to the code.

I am sorry but 15 lines of code isn't enough to claim an app as your own. Period. If the Wii is to be sent, then send it to the personn responsible for it.

Now that beup isn't even usable anymore (ssl connect failed anyone ?) i can see where you're all followers coming, trying to buy the maintenance of beup. Well i can tell you that if the maintenance is only changing the server adress and add a new skin, i am pretty sure a lot of coders will be glad to do it... And for free, for the sole purpose of using this cool app developped by KevinC.
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: loldrama on April 18, 2007, 02:08:21 AM
What's up with all the non-programmers feeling like they have to throw in their uninformed opinion?
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: jester on April 18, 2007, 02:25:42 AM
Just to let you guys no that IF HtheB is given the Wii will he continue with Beup? Probably not!

Its all you decision give a Wii to someone that did 0.163% of work on an app OR vote NO and stop this unfairness from entering this Neoflash compo again!
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: ced on April 18, 2007, 02:46:09 AM
Wow, lots of "0 post guys" are browsing this thread... as intersting as the surprising rise of "yes" voters...

Wish this poll could be unanonymous...  ::sm-10.gif::
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: d-loader on April 18, 2007, 03:12:27 AM
Wow, lots of "0 post guys" are browsing this thread... as intersting as the surprising rise of "yes" voters...

Wish this poll could be unanonymous...  ::sm-10.gif::

Good point, the "sure" raised incredibly these last few hours.. its very suspicious ^-^

Personally, I didn't know that it was only 15 lines of code. While he might have been supportive towards the community, it wouldn't count in this contest. Its all about coding, hence the name, and therefore I find it quite disrespectfull towards the other coders  :-\
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: mastertop101 on April 18, 2007, 03:27:41 AM
Yeah, that's not normal, the Yes went from 20% to more than 50%.. I honestly beleive many people will boycott neoflash compos if Htheb gets his prize.
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: JAGAero on April 18, 2007, 03:31:32 AM
There are so many doubts about this question...
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: d-loader on April 18, 2007, 03:37:43 AM
Yeah, that's not normal, the Yes went from 20% to more than 50%.. I honestly beleive many people will boycott neoflash compos if Htheb gets his prize.

I smell cheat n' proxy servers  ::sm-16.gif::
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: lupidan on April 18, 2007, 04:14:37 AM
I smell support...
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: julien416 on April 18, 2007, 04:32:15 AM
Why not ask the people who partipated to the compo instead of opening a poll that smells like a fraud...? Anyone ? After all that's the coders who should have the last word.
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: e3skudo on April 18, 2007, 04:44:59 AM
Hello,

I think that the problem is in the NeoFlash for accept the project. If people had vote it, he is the winner...

So... For me and a lot of people, HtheB is the winner.

SeeYou!!!
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: Yepid on April 18, 2007, 05:04:10 AM
HtheB winner!!!
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: Lick on April 18, 2007, 05:48:43 AM
Have you people even read the discussion (http://www.neoflash.com/forum/index.php/topic,4121.30.html)?

Your use of already invalidated arguments gives me the impression that you have not.

Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: WinterMute on April 18, 2007, 06:11:07 AM
This whole situation is crazy.

What part of entering someone else's code in a competition deserves a community vote to decide the outcome?

Wasn't this a *programming* competition?

If you're bringing this to a vote you need to select a panel that understands the issues involved to make the decision.

1. The guy did *not* write Beup.
2. He does *not own a DS
3. He's already scammed free kit from other manufacturers by lying about the first two.

Right now I'm seriously considering calling for a boycott of Neoflash and their competitions entirely because of this situation.
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: Neil on April 18, 2007, 07:19:06 AM
Wow, lots of "0 post guys" are browsing this thread... as intersting as the surprising rise of "yes" voters...

Wish this poll could be unanonymous...  ::sm-10.gif::

Yes, I noticed that too.  The "sure" votes REALLY shot up all of a sudden... there were 30 no's and only about 6 yes votes after the first 15 hours of voting or so.  Now all of a sudden, the yes votes have not only caught up but have overtaken.

I hope the IP addresses of the voters are being looked at....
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: Neil on April 18, 2007, 07:31:51 AM
Another thing that strikes me is that HtheB has gone very quiet since kevinc appeared and confirmed the former's lack of input on the beup project.  Has he posted about this matter since then, or is he too busy making sock puppets?!  The last I saw of him was on gbadev, where he tried to stop this outing from happening by telling people they were 'jealous bitches' and asking them to 'stop the conversation.'

You would think he'd apologise and say 'fair enough, give the prize to the second place finisher or to kevinc instead.'  That would be the decent thing to do.
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: mastertop101 on April 18, 2007, 07:49:48 AM
I'm pretty sure the same thing hapenned about the NDS app voting... At first, Phidias was winning and, all of a sudden, Beup got votes...

It's getting obvious Htheb shouldn't get his prize, especially since he changed pretty much nothing since another neoflash compo that he won and Phidias is very original, and cool etc.
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: ai3gtmc on April 18, 2007, 01:01:11 PM
WHAT! 15 lines for a wii?!??! Thats not FAIR.... all of us worked hard to make our own homebrew then he just copy others homebrew... then win the 1st prize? man... thats absolutely not FAIR...i cant even sleep just to finish my app...

15 lines.... 1 line for me is 10-40 secs...  100-600secs for a wii?

NO WAY! >:( >:D  hmmm its just the same as cheaters..,scammers....=BAN
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: ai3gtmc on April 18, 2007, 01:03:34 PM
btw the prize already shipped? i hope not :-X
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: Brunni on April 18, 2007, 06:41:41 PM
Yeah, that's not normal, the Yes went from 20% to more than 50%.. I honestly beleive many people will boycott neoflash compos if Htheb gets his prize.
Haa! You noticed the same thing? It's not support or anything, it's pure and clear cheat. And even if the guy who cheated is maybe not HtheB, this tells everything about the situation ::sm-16.gif::
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: kevinc on April 18, 2007, 06:49:19 PM

just give out your vote now.  ::sm-22.gif::

Dr Neo, when I said the community, I meant the *programmer* community, especially those who participated in the contest with their own code. And their opinion is a clear *no*. I didn't expect to come here and see a voting process.

Please let's finish this as soon as possible. I don't want the Wii, I already won another competition. Give it to the next place, or as you wish.

Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: DKnight on April 18, 2007, 07:27:07 PM
1) An app shouldnt be allowed to win 2 consecutive compos. It's unfair.

2) What HtheB has done is basically splat his name all over an app wich he has not developed. And when you have all these other developers sweating blood with their own projects made from scracht, its clearly wrong to put this in first place.

3) This should be discussed and decided internally within the compo participants, no by some anonymous and easily manipulable forum poll.

Greetings ::sm-23.gif::
Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: ai3gtmc on April 18, 2007, 08:19:39 PM



1) an app can be entered 2x(i think so) but there must be a massive change..

2) agree... just like what said on my last post.. i cant even sleep ::sm-05:: just to finish that app(i dont sleep well:( )   ::sm-16.gif::

3) agree again... this should only be discussed by the participants... even i didn't join for the ds, im still a part of this compo(PSP).

Title: Re: do you agree HtheB can win the WII for No.1?
Post by: Dr.neo on April 19, 2007, 12:27:04 AM
ok,very sorry for this case,we will learn the lesson and will do more well in the Aug.20 2007 compo  ::sm-22.gif::

then here is the final result:
HtheB will don't get the prize for this compo,but we don't want to change the winner order again becuse all prize were ship already before 1 week,and today have ship out 2 wii console too.

this topic is closed now.
and sorry again for everyone  :-\